Yeah. The first gigs could have been as low as a few dollars. When I got to Stockton to go to school as a freshmen - I'm then 17 and a stranger to all the musicians. I didn't know anyone. I was a pre-med major. I used to try and hang out with guys who'd fluff me off. "Where are you from? " Ione. They'd just kind of turn their back and walk away. The head of the Stockton musicians union heard me play at a sorority house, where the - my roommate when I was a freshman was going with a girl at this sorority house, so I'd often go there and play. I got to know those sorority girls. They invited this head of the union, who was a junior or senior in the conservatory. "Come over and hear this kid. " So he came over. He liked what I was doing. He said, "I'm working at a nightclub, but I have a chance to go to a better job. Would you be interested in taking that job? " I thought, wow, that would be great, but I'm not in the union. He said, "I'm the president of the union. I'll just get you in. " His name was <span class="fullMatch" id="match_35">Herman Shapiro</span>, later known as Herman Saunders in <span class="otherMatch" rel="popover" id="other_567_326660">Los Angeles</span>. He changed his name. He did the music for a lot of big t.v. serials that ran every week. He recently passed away, but we followed each other for our careers. That's the way I got into the union, because I wasn't old enough to get into the union. Then I'm thrown into bands with some of these guys that are fluffing me off, and I scared them to death. "Where did you hear something like that? " So it quickly changed everything, being that [ ]