Well I knew him real well in the fact that when I was working at the Nut Club, '53, '54 or something like that, and Jackie McLean came by, because Jackie was in the area and we knew each other pretty well. I said "come on with me," he said "where," I said "come on. " Went to the Bohemia. Now you know Bird had just died, so it had to be '55 or something, whatever. Bird was gone. So Jackie and I figured we might get a gig. I mean it's kind of cold but nevertheless. Trying to find the positive in spite of the tragic loss.  And we went in and there was Oscar Pettiford's band and Cannonball was sitting in -- this guy was sitting in, it was Julian. And I remember Jackie and I were at the back of the hall and we were listening to this son of a bitch, and in unison we looked at each other and said "oh shit. " Like in one voice. Where did this guy come from?