Well sometimes during this time a demo date might be twenty, twenty-five dollars, it might even be fifteen dollars. But if you -- your hotel rent is due, you know what I mean, and you're not working, that's fifteen dollars you've got to work with. You know what I mean? And sometimes the musicians had to deliver sandwiches during the day or if you'd find another -- you know where there's a will there's a way. But the main thing you're here in New York. And as long as you are out there, you got a chance to, there's an opportunity of being in the right place at the right time. And then you're constantly woodshedding. And at that time they used to have sessions at Small's Paradise up in Harlem. And there was a little place called Connie's. And I would take the subway train up to Small's and the jam sessions usually started around ten, ten to two, and maybe I could go up there for two hours. And then they had jam sessions in Brooklyn. And at the time, well they had the Baby Grand, but there was a club, The Continental, it was a club in Brooklyn where Bud Powell used to play. So I had, when I got in New York naturally I sought out where all the places were. So I'd get on the subway train and sometimes people would drive in the car and by the time they'd get to The Continental, I'm there already. You'd look up, you know, but at that time that's what you had -- you tried to be everywhere necessary. And then down at the village they had the Five Spot and they had the Club Bohemia, you know and I would go down there at the time Randy Weston was down there and he worked, in fact they had music seven nights a week, I think Randy worked six and on Monday nights they had off night groups. And there was just a lot of great music playing. And so you'd get a chance to hear a lot of music, plus you got exposed. And during that time record companies, if they heard somebody new was in town from somebody they knew like maybe somebody playing for the label would say oh so-and-so is a great trumpet player, you ought to hear him. They came out the clubs to listen to see who was in town and a lot of times that's how musicians got on the recordings. You know that doesn't happen like that now, it's on another level. But at that time you know you might be sitting in at a club and in the audience was somebody from a record company was there and you got a date.