Well we were in on it because it would happen three times a week, that type of situation.  And he always was to have us back, and we knew we weren't fired fired. But that was the impression. Herbie Mann dealt with his audience another way. So that was a learning process for me, just checking those things out. I guess I was looking to the fact of being a band leader at that time and I wanted to know about those things. And I think all of that helped me to be a much better band leader as time went on.