No. We started, my grandfather was an opera buff and liked classical music, symphonic music, and that's what we listened to first and that's what I played first. And I was fairly good at it and played in a junior symphony in Philadelphia and Symphony Club in Philadelphia, as I was twelve, eight, eight to twelve years old playing in that. And then I took a music course at the vocational school, Nasbaum in Philadelphia. In fact Joe Wilder was here with us -- Joe Wilder? He and I were in the same class together back in Philadelphia. We had a great time and we learned. They had two really dedicated teachers. One in particular, Mr. Lavenneu, conducted the orchestra. I think he was, well he was the 1936 version or 1937 version of Mr. Holland. That's him. Except maybe more severe and more intimidating. But we accepted that. Now it seems like band directors and orchestra conductors can't get away with being so volatile. They have to be careful, they'll get sued or something like that. But in those days if he heard, you know if he knew that the third trumpet player or the second string violin, if they were playing wrong notes, he'd throw the baton in that direction. But we loved him, we loved him. We knew that he knew and he was directing us in the right way.