Avant-garde to the point where he realized what free form was, because the word "form" was still there. He could still swing hard. He could do it all. But his approach, his sound - his sound was different than anyone else's, too. Elvin Jones was the same way. You could tell by listening to him - probably you could tell that sound. We talked about an 18-inch bass drum. He made it sound like a 26-inch bass drum. I went to hear him play once. He played - he had a brush in his right hand. He went to hit a ff with a cymbal with a brush and a bass drum. It sounded like a cannon going off. He had more strength - you ever shake hands with him? You could hear the bones cracking. Great story about Elvin Jones, Buddy Rich, and myself. I was in London with Oscar Peterson. Buddy Rich was there with his big band. Buddy Rich called me and said, "Elvin Jones's down playing at Ronnie Scott's. Let's go catch him tonight. " "Okay. " So we went down. Elvin Jones's drums were where you are sitting, and Buddy Rich and I were sitting right here - that close. Buddy Rich kept saying, "How's he get a sound out of that little bass drum? To me, I can't reason that out. " Anyway, Elvin Jones played the set. He was sweating like mad. After the set was over, Buddy Rich said, "Let's go back and pay our respects. " So we went back to the dressing room. Elvin Jones picked up Buddy Rich and hugged him. When he set him down, all the sweat that was on Elvinwent on Buddy Rich's suede jacket. Buddy Rich said he couldn't clean the suede jacket any more. He had to put it up. It belongs to Elvin Jones. It was funny though.