'38, yeah. And in fact he did the Old Gold Show from CBS with Artie Shaw. And Robert Benchley was the host. And I'd stand there, it was like a seven o'clock or six o'clock broadcast And Robert Benchley was the host and they'd open up with, they'd say "would somebody wake up Benchley? Would somebody wake up Benchley? Would somebody, somebody, somebody, somebody, somebody, wake up Benchley? And he's say "ahhh, he's up." And Buddy'd play a drum fill and they'd play a crazy rhythm. And I used to wait that whole hour. I used to go every Sunday. And then I had to get home because Ellery Queen was on radio. So I went home to hear Ellery Queen. So that's how it all started. And actually, after he left Bunny Berigan, I read in the trades that Artie Shaw was looking for a drummer. Cliff Lehman was leaving. And I waited by the Lincoln Hotel in like the alleyway where like the stage door was, I waited for Artie Shaw. Because I didn't think he knew about Buddy. So he came out, and I was polite, I said "excuse me Mr. Shaw," I said, and he felt like talking, I don't know. He said "what is it, young man?" I said "well I read that you were looking for a drummer." Cliff Lehman was leaving. I said "I know the greatest." And he said "who is that?" And I said "Buddy Rich." And he said "he can't play." And a week later he joined the band. And in my little mind there I thought I got him the job. And then he went with Tommy and then I went with Shorty Sherock. That was the first band I really played -- the first jazz band that I played in. And after, when I left Shorty and we disbanded, 1947, because I mean I would do anything Buddy asked me, I mean I'd go out and swim in the ocean and think I'm going to Europe if he asked me. I'd do anything he wanted. Didn't matter. So he asked me to join the band. He called me. And I joined the band at the Sherman Hotel in Chicago in 1947.