It's a lot of work and there's no money in it. I mean that's -- but for anybody who's in traditional jazz there's no money in it. The festivals are lucky if they break even. Nobody makes any money on it. The main problem is you're trying to satisfy a lot of different tastes, you're trying to satisfy an audience who is aging and the audience is dwindling, so the challenge is trying to bring in new people. There is no interest on the part of the press.  The general press has no interest in traditional jazz. And the rare times that they're kind of forced into doing an article, the articles are rife with errors. And it's almost more frustrating to have an article published with the errors than it is to not have an article at all. It just makes you want to tear out your hair, really. That's one of the problems.  Because you're serving a small audience it's expensive to publish a paper like mine.  From the very first issue I paid my writers, which most traditional jazz publications never did. I paid them a pittance. But on the other hand because The Rag is respected they can build a reputation because I will work with writers to refine their writing skills, to help them make contacts, to give them access to musicians that they wouldn't have access to.  Chip Deffaa, you probably know Chip, he -- every book that he writes, he writes something and he says you gave me my start, which is very sweet but it's also very true.  Because he's written, put together, I believe it's four books based on interviews that were first published in The Mississippi Rag. And they're expanded interviews. I edited them down and, quite honestly, I think the edited versions are stronger, but he naturally had more material that he wanted to include. You know, he wanted to include the full interview. And the books are, I'm very glad that he had the books published, but I helped him to find the publishers. I could say you're not going to like this publisher, they won't work with you or they're going to expect you to do more work or you're going to end up putting out money and, you know, try this person instead. And so he's done that and it's worked out quite nicely for him. And he's built up a good reputation. I think he got his job at the New York Post based largely on the access that he had to the musicians where we ran interviews in The Rag.